Limbo dancing

[undyingking]

I'm sure that like me you were all excited to learn that the new Pope is considering abolishing Limbo.

I find this a bit of a puzzle. When Limbo first entered church doctrine in the Middle Ages, it was put across as "at last we've worked out what's happened to the souls of virtuous pagans, unbaptized babies and so on". So how can you just abolish it? Where are they now going to say those souls are? Or can they possibly admit that the whole thing's a bit of an absurd intellectual exercise best forgotten about? And if so, what about transubstantiation, the immaculate conception, the trinity and all the other intellectual exercises, enforced compliance with which has caused so much death, suffering etc?

Comments

[cardinalsin.livejournal.com]

I thought you were actually talking about limbo dancing at first. I kept waiting for the punchline and it never came... :(

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid my LJ posts are setting the bar lower and lower...

[ar-gemlad.livejournal.com]

*obligatory drum fill*

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

I imagine it has something to do with symbolism. Something like transubstantiation makes sense even to atheists like myself as a powerful metaphor. Heaven and hell serve their purpose, but Limbo doesn't really work on a metaphorical level. It only works if you're taking such an immensely literal, fundamentalist approach that you actually think hell is a physical place where an unbaptised baby might actually otherwise go.

In the modern world it makes a lot of sense to back off from such things. Presumably it doesn't appear in the bible anyway (he asked ignorantly) ?

[verlaine.livejournal.com]

It's at the beginning of the article!

Limbo was concocted in the 13th century as a solution to the theological conundrum of what happened to babies who died before they were christened.

[cardinalsin.livejournal.com]

only works if you're taking such an immensely literal, fundamentalist approach that you actually think hell is a physical place where an unbaptised baby might actually otherwise go.

Like you I am pretty ignorant of such things, but surely this (replacing the word 'physical' with 'actual') is the standard view for a good catholic? I don't think the loss of 'physical' is significant, because to all intents and purposes any 'actual' place might as well be 'physical' even if technically it isn't.

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

I believe that what you say is so, which is why I'm curious to know where they're now going to say that these souls are. (Protestants by contrast generally have no problem with assuming that unbaptised babies go to Heaven.)

[celestialweasel.livejournal.com]

You are, I believe, supposed to trust in the mercy of God that he would not fry the unbaptised babies for all eternity. I believe you are allowed to infer this from the fact that He (in one of his 3 disguises) said 'suffer little children to come unto me' rather than 'suffer little children to come unto me and if they don't then they will be stir fried in the wok for all eternity'. However, since He didn't explicitly say one way or the other you are not allowed to make up these constructs.

There are those who might say that the Bible is a mess of contradictory gibberish and that He has a rap sheet containing plenty of suggestions that putting your faith in His mercy could not be one of the better bets of your career.

My specialist subject, however, is 'Mormons, complete toss or what?' so I could be wrong.

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

Indeed it doesn't, it was invented out of whole cloth by Aquinas and the like.

I agree with what you say -- but I think the same is true of transubstantiation, in that it seems to me that the symbolic power of the Eucharist is just as powerfully conveyed by consubstantiation or even memorialism -- but Catholic insistence on the literal in this was enough to massacre the Huguenots, etc.

[jezzidue.livejournal.com]

Hey - what about heaven and hell?

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

That's a whole nother can of red-hot sizzling worms...

[metame.livejournal.com]

Presumably the fact of the matter is that God told him to do it. So he's not necessarily worried about what the new truth is, just that Limbo wasn't it.

I think the consistency of 'the word' isn't really a worry for top-end religious ppl - which is part of the huge mismatch in mindset between them and scientists, philosophers and the like. Aquinas probably came up with the Limbo idea cos he wanted more consistency in the model.

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

Mm, that tension is what I find rather fascinating about medieval theology.

Although the period roughly 4th-9th century AD, where there's an analogous tension between theology and crude, dirty politics -- see the shenanigans at the various ecumenical councils -- is even more interesting, from a safe distance, I think.

[the-elyan.livejournal.com]

Most interesting. Having been raised as a Catholic (and therefore finding Dogma even more hilarious), I was not exposed much to the idea of Limbo in its true form. Semantic laziness also meant that it sometimes got confused with Pugatory, which presumably is still very much on the eternal gazetteer.

Actually, the film Dogma is relevant here, because the problem "solved" by Limbo and the crux of the film both come down to the effects of dogmatic infallibilty. If the idea of "except" could be incorporated, or more general the ability to revise ideas, then the argument would, if not cease, then certainly become less knotty.

Or, to put it as the Catholic Father Emil does somewhere in the tale of Lake Wobegon (Leaving Home, I think): "Lutheranism is my idea of a holiday. To take those truths we find difficult, and bend them a little to make life easier. Yes, Luther was a great man all right"

To take those truths we find difficult, and bend them a little to make life easier

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

That's certainly one way of putting it ;-)

Re: To take those truths we find difficult, and bend them a little to make life easier

[the-elyan.livejournal.com]

Father Emil is a good character - an old-fashioned Catholic, running a church called Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility, which is a very good name...

Actually, for all its "gee, ain't small towns NEAT" cutesieness, the whole Lake Wobegon milieu (Garrison Keillor) is worth investigating, ideally in talking book form...

Re: To take those truths we find difficult, and bend them a little to make life easier

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

Mm, I've read some of the books.

[celestialweasel.livejournal.com]

I believe Purgatory went with Vatican II

[bateleur.livejournal.com]

"Attack of the Cardinals" or "Antipope Strikes Back" ?

[thalinoviel.livejournal.com]

Yes, it did, awkward given that I was vaguely hoping I'd go there instead of Hell.

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

You could always create your own Purgatory here on Earth, by becoming a schoolteacher or something like that...

[adamsmithjr.livejournal.com]

You've presumably seen the 'Father Ted' episode with the three bishops and Father Dougal's doubts... "I mean, it used to be a sin to eat meat on Friday and now it's not. So what about those people who ate meat on Friday and went to hell. They'd be feeling a bit annoyed now, wouldn't they?"

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

Yes, that was actually going through my mind as I was writing! The Wit and Wisdom of Father Dougal, what a fine book that'd make.

[fractalgeek.livejournal.com]

But that, I understand, is exactly the point of ultra-orthodox Jewish law observation. The observation of the letter of the law is in its own right obedience to faith, therefore it doesn't matter what they are. Father Dougal is only funny if you actually believe that the laws have to be intrinsicly just and not arbitrary.

PS: I read limbo dancing too

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

that, I understand, is exactly the point of ultra-orthodox Jewish law observation

Ah, I didn't know that, interesting! In that case I guess you could hypothesize that the notions of "justice" expressed in Christianity are maybe purely a result of the infusion of Classical Greek philosophy.

[jackfirecat.livejournal.com]

Indded, good point! I too am informed by that comment, but don't lump all jewish tradition into 'ultra-orthodox'. Rabbinical scholars are as interprative as jesuits (and sufis?).

The Catholic church is a strange one, isn't it? Encyclicals have embraced evolution and non-literal reading of the Bible, unlike the happy-clappy hair-shirts across the Atlantic; the modern-day Catholic church would not show the instuments of torture to Galileo or burn Bruno,and I don't think anyone suffered for plate tectonics, but they are still a bit slow.. on condoms, for instance. (and transubstantiation, as you say, but that's less of a life-and-death issue these days.)

What is all this heaven and hell stuff anyway? Surely everyone's dead until the day of judgement? Says the atheist.

Surely everyone's dead until the day of judgement?

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

There is some ambiguity about that, in that according to one of the Evangelists (Luke, I think) Jesus said to the "good" thief on the cross that they would be together in Paradise "today", which was rather hopefully siezed upon -- it was also thought convenient to assume that the saints etc went to Heaven as soon as they died, otherwise there wouldn't be much point praying to them / asking for their intercession with the Divine.

Mm, there's always a suspicion that the resistance to condoms and abortion is more to do with demographic wishfullness than doctrine.

[fractalgeek.livejournal.com]

Did I imply "all Jewish tradition"? I had in mind a documentary I saw, including (and please excuse me if I get the exact membership wrong) a Rabbi who was certifying Kosher, who I think was both Lubavitch and Beth Din.

He went into great length about how following the letter of the law to the fullest extent possible was an observation in its own right, within tradition and scripture, and that the reason for a law was therefore irrelevant. You can be fairly sure he didn't approve of Reform...

following the letter of the law to the fullest extent possible was an observation in its own right

[undyingking.livejournal.com]

Mm, I can see where he's coming from with that, but it still seems a bit distasteful from a decadent post-Enlightenment perspective!